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  • #552282
    WerewolfPaladin
    • Posts : 418
    • Thri-kreen

    Well, given the discussion on level drain, I was wondering what people thought of DnD’s CR system in general. It seems to me that somehwere around CR 7-10, the abilities of the creatures start outstripping the abilities that I party of even level could bring against it. For Example, take the Iron Golem, Please: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm#ironGolem

    Okay, we’re looking at a CR 13 to start off with, which means it should be a challenge to a 13th level party.

    Let’s look at his effectiveness against fighter-types. With 2 slams per round at a +23 bonus for an average damage with each hit of 22 points of damage, per hit, no fighter type is going to last long under that assault. Add in the breath weapon of poisonous gas as a *free* action once every 1d4+1 rounds that deals 1d4 Con damage initially if you don’t make a DC 19 Fort save and your fighter is going to be dead. The golem is also 18 hit dice with an average hit points over 100 and DR 15/adamantine and AC 30. Makes the fighter’s job difficult.

    Rogues are an easy class to talk about. Constructs are immune to sneak attacks, negating the Rogues primary means of dealing damage.

    Spellcasters are also up a creek without a paddle. Golems are immune to any spell that allows spell resistance. Very few spells don’t allow spells resistance. Any fire effect heals them, possibly even giving them temporary hit points.

    Failing a rusting grasp spell (which requires getting yourself into touch range) or a bunch of lucky damage rolls from the fighter type(s), the golem will absolutely wipe the floor with a 13th level party.

    Another example is the spectre mentioned in the other thread (CR 7 with incorporeality and level draining at 2 levels per shot).

    Arguments can be made either way, but just as the system doesn’t cover traps over CR 10 (CR 10 consisting of some instant death traps), I’m not sure the system can realistically handle the challenge that some abilities present to parties. Thoughts?

    #564312
    WerewolfPaladin
    • Posts : 418
    • Thri-kreen

    Another example pointed out to me: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/leonal.htm

    I know it’s a neutral good creature, but it’s a CR 12 with the ability to Fireball and Wall of Force at will.

    #564313
    Anonymous
    • Posts : 1113
    • Owlbear

    I tried following the CR guidlines and quickly learned it is not an accurate gauge. I have learned to ignore its existance and I am much happier now. 🙂

    #564314
    Anonymous
    • Posts : 1113
    • Owlbear
    WerewolfPaladin wrote:
    Well, given the discussion on level drain, I was wondering what people thought of DnD’s CR system in general. It seems to me that somehwere around CR 7-10, the abilities of the creatures start outstripping the abilities that I party of even level could bring against it. For Example, take the Iron Golem, Please: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm#ironGolem

    Okay, we’re looking at a CR 13 to start off with, which means it should be a challenge to a 13th level party.

    Let’s look at his effectiveness against fighter-types. With 2 slams per round at a +23 bonus for an average damage with each hit of 22 points of damage, per hit, no fighter type is going to last long under that assault. Add in the breath weapon of poisonous gas as a *free* action once every 1d4+1 rounds that deals 1d4 Con damage initially if you don’t make a DC 19 Fort save and your fighter is going to be dead. The golem is also 18 hit dice with an average hit points over 100 and DR 15/adamantine and AC 30. Makes the fighter’s job difficult.

    Rogues are an easy class to talk about. Constructs are immune to sneak attacks, negating the Rogues primary means of dealing damage.

    Spellcasters are also up a creek without a paddle. Golems are immune to any spell that allows spell resistance. Very few spells don’t allow spells resistance. Any fire effect heals them, possibly even giving them temporary hit points.

    Failing a rusting grasp spell (which requires getting yourself into touch range) or a bunch of lucky damage rolls from the fighter type(s), the golem will absolutely wipe the floor with a 13th level party.

    Another example is the spectre mentioned in the other thread (CR 7 with incorporeality and level draining at 2 levels per shot).

    Arguments can be made either way, but just as the system doesn’t cover traps over CR 10 (CR 10 consisting of some instant death traps), I’m not sure the system can realistically handle the challenge that some abilities present to parties. Thoughts?

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