April 8, 2010 at 11:15 am #623028Cuchulain
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Excellent.April 8, 2010 at 2:06 pm #623029gdewalt wrote:. . . Every combat seemed to take hours . . .
Yeah, I’ve notice that about 4th era. Though there are some great house rules out there that mollify that problem to a great extent. Some of my favorites are: when the main guy falls so too do all minions; use of hit and run tactics; player actions should be ready as soon as their turn comes up – so too the referee; and average damage for everything but critical successes which do maximum. There are loads of house rules out there that are working to speed up combat and make the game better. It’s a lot like the original edition where nearly everyone seems to have had their own version of the game going.
One of the better things about the game, I think, is that people appear to feel more at ease with messing with it again. Maybe it’s just my perception of the situation?gdewalt wrote:. . . The skill challenge mechanic especially seemed strange. It turned something that could have been good for roleplaying (“Convince this ghost to let you pass”) to (Roll persuasion or history 6 times) . . .
Back when the Sons of Kryos were still producing their podcasts they had an interview with one of the indie developers who was talking about his favorite aspects of the new edition and his own house rules and the dynamics that they added to the game. He eschewed rolls where you should role play and only used them in situations where they would add to the game. The example I remember, and I apologize if I butcher this, was that the group was investigating the activities of a thieves ring in town. The initial player made his role; then as each individual who aided him in this made their roles he would narrate certain activities that might happen such as the discovery of some key piece of evidence. When failures would occur the players would nearly get caught by the thieves guild or have some other close call which then would allow the player more opportunities to role play his way out. He used this system to really build the narrative tension of the game and it was really cool in how it all worked.gdewalt wrote:. . . I’m not saying 4e is bad or prevents roleplaying, but the published modules really didn’t do it for us.
Yeah, I’ve yet to hear anyone who really liked them and thought they were the shit. That’s really odd when you consider that they were supposed to help with the launch of the system.April 8, 2010 at 2:26 pm #623030Mordion wrote:. . . Saying “4th edition D&D isn’t D&D” is sort of a bizarre statement, of course, but I sympathize with the feelings of people who say it. The almost total elimination of the Vancian magic system, the changing of a lot of iconic D&D spells into long term rituals, and giving all classes the same sorts of rechargeable powers has given 4e a very different feel than any other edition.
I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with 4e, I’m not even saying I dislike it, I’m just saying that I think the editions prior to 4e all feel like different versions of the same game, and 4e feels like…something else.
You know, I can see where you’re coming from; though it’s always seemed to me that the 3rd era was something else from the previous three editions of the game. Original, Advanced, and Second always seemed like they were moving down the same line of thought with an increasingly annoying array of rules that threatened to overwhelm you if you let them. Third era was something else: more structured in some way; easier to break without the flexibility of Original and Advanced. Still the same game, but different nonetheless.
But yeah, I think that fourth is definitely something else too, though still the same game in the end.April 8, 2010 at 2:42 pm #623031Cuchulain wrote:. . . I changed to CoC. Much better system . . .
I don’t like it but I can see it’s appeal.
I have a thing against d10s. You know, some people don’t like whiskey sort of thing.Cuchulain wrote:. . . I can quite honestly say that it is one of the dullest, most annoying systems I have ever had the displeasure to play, and it has obviously been crafted to cost the gamer more for a given value of game than any other RP system I know . . .
When I first bought the Player’s Handbook I felt pretty much the same way. Though listening to the 4th era podcast on here slightly changed my mind; it wasn’t until I started listening to the Key Our Cars podcast that I really starting rethinking my position. They were having just as much fun as I had ever had with any 3rd era game and playing in the new system. Their house rulings were inventive – and actually made the game more enjoyable.
Now I haven’t run a 4th era game yet, but I do plan to soon. Once I have I’ll have a better understanding of my feelings on the game then I do now. Until then I plan on standing neutral on the product, while arguing against patently false statements about the game.Cuchulain wrote:. . . I agree – fear of change is a bad thing. So change to a better system . . .
Man that was a genuinely good turn there. I bet if we were having this conversation in person, rather than on the internet, that it would be nearly impossible for me to walk away from this discussion as you’d be way too much fun to talk to. And I am not kidding or being skunky in any way here.
That was neat.April 8, 2010 at 2:47 pm #623032Telemergion wrote:. . . It’s totally a money grab, I agree – and I actually like the system though I’ll admit it has some flaws and issues. Your analogy isn’t quite accurate, though, so I’m gonna help fix it . . .
Your analogy was better but I don’t like roses or tulips. Could our next analogy clarifying involve liquor or chocolate?
I like those.April 8, 2010 at 11:12 pm #623033
No, that would be silly. 😛April 9, 2010 at 12:12 am #623034Keener
Telemergion wrote:No, that would be silly. 😛
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I agree analogies with flowers and chocolates just don’t work. 😀April 9, 2010 at 8:39 am #623035
Speaking of 4E combat taking hours; I just finished a session that started 7 hours ago. The single combat took… maybe an hour and a half. The trap took the better part of an hour. The rest of the time was spent doing so of our best roleplaying of the season. Take that, nay-sayers!April 10, 2010 at 11:27 am #623036Cuchulain
- Posts : 55
Indeed. Well, it must be said that I have had some great fun in my latest 4E game – perhaps one of my most memorable characters ever, the irrepressable Marmadoc Proudfoot, ever ready to chat with anyone about anything. Even when they don’t want to.
Which has been huge fun.
But the system minimises the time I have to actually experience and play this character, the minutiae of all the different powers/abilities/whatever distracting from the engaging personality. I find it very annoying.April 10, 2010 at 5:47 pm #623037Cuchulain wrote:But the system minimises the time I have to actually experience and play this character, the minutiae of all the different powers/abilities/whatever distracting from the engaging personality.
I can see that. Myself and my players don’t seem to share that opinion, but I can totally see how that would be the case for some people.April 27, 2010 at 10:50 pm #623038Vaeron
- Posts : 408
Some of the races or feats have little details about being bloodied, or if such and such happens, that can be hard to keep track of as a player. But I do think players should know their characters pretty well (they made them, after all) and have those things in mind.
It gets really hard at higher levels. Almost everyone seems to forget their paragon ability when they spend an Action Point. My group is almost done with the Death’s Reach module, for which Level 21 characters were created instead of gradually built up. At first that meant a lot of shuffling through pages as they tried to figure out how Feat X effected Power Y as augmented by Magic Item Z. But now, about 12 sessions in, it runs much more smoothly.
The highest I got as a player was 19, and my constant retraining at each level and multiclassing made it harder than it should have been. The new Hybrid system should fix a lot of that.
The hardest thing for me to keep track of is magic items and their effects. Especially if you have a few. Some good ones are so inexpensive its silly not to… Certain circlets or boots/gloves that are low level items actually have effects that are still good moving into Epic. And remembering some of them (Daily: When you are hit with an attack that targets your Will while you are bloodied, *this* happens) can be a real chore.
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